Guest Post: Innovation - Giving Birth to a Startup

Monica's note: Today's guest post was written by Mike Harrington, cofounder of Valve and Picnik. Mike is my husband. He and Darrin Massena started Picnik just over four years ago. Enjoy!

People often ask me where the idea for a startup comes from. Well, in the case of Picnik, it starts by having a brilliant friend I love working with, some free time and an active imagination.

Darrin and I started in the summer of 2005 with no specific idea other than to do something interesting with Flash. We believed Flash was going to be an interesting emerging platform and that it would be interesting to write an app that ran on all browsers and platforms without the hassles of browser compatibility. Beyond that, we didn’t really have a specific product idea.

We brainstormed through a lot of different ideas, from better wifi hotspots, a flash based PowerPoint-like product or a Visio, and lots of other ideas. Each idea fell by the wayside because it was a) not fun enough or b) when we googled the idea it was clear that someone had already tried it and failed. In early December of 2005, we hit on the idea of doing a photo editor in Flash. It seemed like a great idea. It was fun, consumer focused (we didn’t think enterprise software would be as fun) and Flash seemed like a great platform for a photo editor.

Recently, we were reminiscing about the early days and Darrin dug up the email that captured our brainstorming and was used as the spec for our new business. The photo is of the whiteboard from that day. While we didn’t follow the letter of our new plan, we did follow it in spirit. It’s fun to look back at that now that Picnik has grown from a crazy little idea and two guys into a really cool photo editor and a super creative and fun team that I enjoy working with every day.

-mike

---

From: Darrin Massena
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 10:56 PM
To: Harrington, Mike; Massena, Darrin
Subject: Internet Photo Editing

OK, OK, this is it man. Our long term business goal: OWN THE INTERNET PHOTO EDITING MARKET. I think we can do this.

THE MARKET
What is the internet photo editing market? Any site/service that people upload images to. Any site that hosts photos. Photo storage/sharing/management sites (Flickr et al), social networks, blogs, personal web sites, personal gallery sites, forums and groups for starters. More and more people are uploading unedited photos from their camera phones directly to the internet. Wifi-enabled cameras also allow direct-to-service uploads. New sites and services that make use of photos are popping up all over the place. Photos are becoming an internet data type as common as text.

THE PROBLEM
There is no ability to manipulate photos once they are online. People have to download them, bring them into a photo editor (which they must buy/maintain/upgrade), and somehow upload them again. That sucks. Especially for little tweaks like to sharpen an image, or crop it, or to zoom in on part of it. The overhead is so high that most people just don’t bother even though they know the photos they’re printing/sharing could look better and wish they did. To some degree this must be hindering photo sharing sites, amongst others, because their user satisfaction levels aren’t as high as they could be.

OUR SOLUTION
A wholly-online photo editor, provided in (at least) two forms. Standalone, as an online application we provide direct to end-users. And integrated, as a seamless part of any site whose users benefit from being able to manipulate images. Our standalone photo editing service is so complete and powerful that people will pay to use it. They’ll prefer it over the offline tools they have today. The integrated service will work so seamlessly and be integrated so easily that any photo-using site/service will be happy to pay for the value it adds to their site/service; they’ll attract additional users who will spend more time on the site and be happier with their results.

THE COMPETITION
Established companies with photo editing products. Established companies have to overcome two major hurdles to address this market (in addition to realizing it is a market!). First they must write an online photo editing application. There will be no quick ports of existing applications; most code will have to be from scratch. Second, they must implement their code to work as a seamlessly integrated service in a 3rd party site. Not only is this more work, but it is a new mindset for the established players. Their present mindset is more about how they can create a vertically integrated application and service of their own, not how can they add value to a 3rd party.

Upstarts like ourselves, possibly as outgrowths of photo sharing sites. Competition against an independent startup comes down to our ability to execute on our standalone and integrated services as well as our marketing of them. As far as I can see nobody has any kind of lead on us so it is a good bet we will be first and even if we are not first we will be best!

Each photo sharing site that develops an adequate photo editing solution in-house might mean one less customer for our integrated service but a) our standalone service might still make customers out of some of their customers due to its superior interface and capabilities, and b) if even one major photo sharing site adds significant editing capability (presumably proprietary) they’ll fuel their competitor’s desire for our integrated service.

GETTING THERE
There are many avenues we can take. Here’s one possibility that appeals to me.

1. create v1 of the standalone service w/ a minimal devil-horn level of features (i.e. not a serious photo editing tool)
2. launch it using the viral marketing strategy (“Make funny pictures of your friends!”). Build an audience, build credibility.
3. start implementing more serious photo editing features and the ability for the photo editor to be seamlessly integrated into 3rd party sites
4. send our biz-dev folks out to make deals with sites that can be satisfied with basic set of photo editing features
5. launch our v2 standalone service when we have a credible set of photo editing features
6. add features and customers forever and rake in the dough

THOUGHTS
This could be really BIG ($-wise). Our timing is right. We’re at the intersection of demand (mass use of online photos) and capability (Flash 8 supports the first level of functionality we need). Flash 8.5/9 will take us to the next level. If Canvas becomes widespread and is hardware accelerated we can move to that. If WPF becomes widespread we can move to that and boost our functionality/performance even further.

One thing I like about this is the RAD Games Tools-like approach of providing a service for other sites. This is an angle not every Flash bitmap-editing tool author will consider or be able to execute on. In addition to the revenue stream we will be building relationships that will make us harder to displace.
Another service we can provide to 3rd parties: photo processing (both user-directed and automated). Shaula mentioned a service she’s used that provides photos of race participants after a race like the Seattle Marathon. They take pictures of everyone during the race. You pick your photo from their site then they send you prints in the sizes you’ve chosen. They also allow you to choose whether the race’s logo will be printed on the photo. Problem is, they don’t preview what the result will look like with the logo overlaid nor do they let you choose its positioning or which race logo to use. Such a site could insert our service after the photos have been selected and pass us the various logo options. We’d take over and let the user choose/place/size the logo, maybe add a caption, crop the photo, zoom in on a particular group of runners, draw an arrow pointing themselves out in a crowd, etc. We’d pass the composited result back to the host site and they’d take it from there. This is one small usage but I suspect if we look we can find a lot of opportunities like this.

I specifically didn’t mention above the potential inherent in allowing people to ‘upgrade’ their images to include animation, sound, and interactive elements (e.g. hover your mouse over each person in a photo to see their name) because I don’t think it is necessary to add these abilities to make serious headway toward owning this market. They would be really cool though and might break us through into something completely new.

---

From: Massena, Darrin
Sent: Sat 12/10/2005 8:47 AM
To: Harrington, Mike
Subject: Picnik

What do you think of Picnik as a code name? I really like it. Maybe even as a product name? Picnik.com is for sale. After sleeping on it I think it is really important to get and use the product's domain name. Flickr.com is just so much a better handle than somecompany.com/flickr. Especially for a first product, why confuse things by emphasizing your company over your product?

---

From: Harrington, Mike
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 9:42 AM
To: Massena, Darrin
Subject: RE: Picnik

awesome. get it!

---

*Shaula Massena is Darrin's wife. She is a former software developer.

Picnik is now the world's leading online photo editor, attracting almost 50 million visits a month.

NetHope on the Front Lines in Haiti

Last September, I posted blog to Fast Company about NetHope, an org which I've been supporting for more than two years. NetHope, which is made up of the technology leaders from 28 internetional NGOs, is now on the frontlines of getting the communications infrastructure up and running in Haiti so that member agencies (Red Cross, CARE, Save the Children, Oxfam, etc) can better coordinate the logistics of helping so many desperate people. Today CEO Bill Brindley posted an update on the work that they're doing in Haiti.

Hounding Dead People the Brinks Way

My mother died in her home at the age of 91 last January. According to her death certificate, the primary cause of death was dementia.

I recently found out that she signed a contract with Brinks Home Security many years ago that automatically renews each year. The specific service they were charging for was remote home monitoring - which I find interesting because no alarm system at her home was connected to the phone system - which means for many years there was no way for them to have been monitoring it.

A few months ago, they sent a renewal notice which reached my brother, several months after he'd contacted them to say my mother had died (which to me would suggest that she probably wouldn't pay any new charges into the future). Her credit card was no longer valid so they were looking for a new number. He didn't respond to them - he'd already told them she was gone and there was no need for their services, and that's when they renewed the service automatically and then started sending collection notices.

I've just spent the morning trying to reach a real person at Brinks in order to get the situation dealt with amicably. After going through phone tree systems that had no option pertaining to this situation (all the focus is on trying to sell someone a new system), I got hold of Tyra in Customer Loyalty. After I gave her the account number and passed the "security ID" question (not surprisingly, my mother used the family dog's name), she said that indeed my brother had contacted them last April to say my mother was dead. But now the only thing that would cancel the contract was for me to send a copy of my mother's death certificate, my driver's license, and all the documentation regarding her estate into a Customer Care Department. I said that there was no way I was going to send a copy of my license or any other important documents into a corporate bureacracy when all I'm trying to get them to do is quit hounding a dead woman for services that are no longer being provided and haven't been provided for years. I did offer to send Tyra or any specifically named person a scanned copy of the death certificate by email, and then follow up as appropriate. It soon became clear that Tyra couldn't help me and didn't seem to know any actual person who could.

After thanking her and hanging up politely, I decided to check into the Brinks web site a little more. Brinks - which now carries the Broadview Security name - says on their site that they have a strong commitment to "Creating Customers for Life." Through their investor-relations pages, I see that they're especially proud of just how effective their subscription programs are. Apparently, it's good business to sign up customers once and then keep charging them - through dementia, death, and beyond. Perhaps not surprisingly given that policy, their revenues for the quarter ended September 30 were up by more than 6% over the previous year.

If Brinks wants to continue to hound my mother for a service that hasn't been used for years, they're welcome to do that. If she were alive, I suspect she would find it interesting and perhaps a little amusing. Meanwhile, I would suggest that the attorney general for Oregon (where my mother lived), Washington (where I live) and many other states might want to start looking into how such contracts and payment systems affect elderly people who might have once signed up for a security or home monitoring service, but no longer need it and don't know how to make it go away. Let me know if you need any help.

Tensions and Law Enforcement

My heart goes out to the families of the police officers who were gunned down Sunday morning in Lakewood, Washington, not far from where I live. It was a terrible crime and many lives will never be the same. I feel for the officers' colleagues, especially knowing that they suffer the burden of having to be professional and reassure their own loved ones - all the while mourning for close friends and knowing that for a twist of fate, it could have been any one of them.

Many years ago, my summer job involved working dispatch during the night shift in a national park. I was the last person to talk to a patrol officer before a car stop - which also meant I was the first person to talk to the officer after a stop was made. It was a time when databases were not connected and the law enforcement officers were often seasonal rangers like myself with limited training.

Every stop was potentially life threatening. We never knew whether a car stop would involve a drunk, belligerent driver, an apologetic tourist with family in tow, or someone or something more sinister. I worked alone in a dark administration building, and felt the tension intensely. If an officer took more time than I thought they should, I could feel my heart race and I was always grateful when he or she would get on the radio and calmly communicate that the stop was done and had been routine.

Once, on a shift I happened not to be working, a car exploded just after the patrol officer had radioed in to say she was going to make a stop, and we later found out the driver had accidentally blown himself up while trying to throw a grenade out the car. That driver turned out to be on the FBI Most Wanted List and the officer involved was someone I'd come to know as a friend. I don't know how long it took her to get over it, but it's always stayed with me.

Another time I was alone and in uniform when I ran into a group of armed gun enthusiasts in the back country. Carrying guns like that in a national park was clearly illegal - and I was not an armed officer - so I assessed the situation and for whatever reason let them pass without saying a word.

Now, whenever people casually criticize police officers or belittle the pressure or tension they feel, my own gut starts to get tight. I've become the sort of person who feels it's always my job to put law enforcement at ease which sometimes means doing the dog submission equivalent of rolling over and baring my belly. A few years ago, when I was crossing over from Canada into the US and the Customs officer asked if I had anything to declare, I cried out "We've got bacon" as though it were a capital crime. It wasn't even on the list of restricted products.

Of course some people have their own strong reactions to law enforcement for entirely different reasons. In the late 80s when I worked for Microsoft as a product manager, one of my colleagues was black, and he would tell me stories about how often he was stopped because he was young and black and drove an expensive Porsche and was therefore subject to what he described as the ever present offense of "driving while black."

I also know from experience that just being out of sorts can raise suspicions and make everybody tense. Once, when I was catching a flight unexpectedly from Seattle to Nevada, I was put through intense security. The security officers pulled me aside because I was acting stangely - I was sweaty, pale, and could barely pull together a coherent sentence. I'd just found out my sister was dying and I was still in shock as I traveled down to see her for the last time. None of their questions addressed my situation and I couldn't say anything without bursting into tears, so I watched somewhat dazed as they went through everything in my bag and everything on my person. They were clearly puzzled, but couldn't find anything specific and my paperwork seemed to be in order. After what felt like an endless search, they sent me on my way. As I ran to catch my flight, I muttered a tearful thank you and I knew I'd left them wondering if there was something else they should have probed.

We''ve come a long way since the days when I worked at Crater Lake and my friend from the Word product marketing team was pulled over several times a year for merely driving an expensive car while audaciously young and black. Databases are connected, law officers have better training and people everywhere are more sensitive to issues of prejudice in matters of race and authority. Nevertheless, the system and we are still imperfect, and as I write this, the police nearby are in an intense search for the person they believe murdered four of their own.

A terrible crime has been committed, people are grieving, and a suspect is on the loose. Because we're human and fallible, all of us have a duty and responsibility to do what we can to help ease the tensions that accompany such an extraordinary situation.

Innovation: Competition and Collaboration in the Innovation Race

TechFlash ran my post on Competition and Collaboration as a guest column back in September. You can read it here.

A Top 10 List for My Unemployed, Underemployed, and Soon-to-be Graduating Nieces and Nephews

For a long time, I've wanted to share some hopefully sage advice about what I've learned after almost three decades in the work world. And I suppose no time feels more opportune than when so many of you are unemployed or underemployed in an economy that's getting tougher and more competitive all the time.

A lot of you have told me that when it comes to work, I'm the "cool" aunt. I suspect a lot of that actually has to do with your Uncle Mike. After all, it really helps in the "coolness" factor to have an aunt who's married to and worked with the guy who started a game company that delivered a title which rocketed to #1 in the world. I suppose it also also helps that I can answer yes to the question "Did you really get to work with Bill Gates?"

Many of you have asked me directly for work-related counsel; several of you have not. I'm not going to discriminate. This Top 10 list is to all of you.

Here goes:

1) Work to become the story you want to tell. All of us have the chance to shape our lives into a narrative that we can feel proud of. Ideally, you will all lead interesting lives that blend family, friendship, work, and community in ways that make you and others around you proud. If you're not, know that you alone hold the power to change the narrative for your own life.

2) Become a Net Contributor. On any job, always bring an attitute of "what can I do to add value to the business?" Then do it - without worrying about whether you're going to get direct praise and/or rewards immediately. The people who think of themselves as net contributors often seem showered in lucky breaks in the work world. There's a correlation.

3) Remember that your reputation follows you everywhere. The people you meet now might end up playing an important role for you many years or even decades ahead. If you don't think you're the type of person that other people will speak highly of and want to work with again, than figure out what changes you need to make now to become that person.

4) Be curious and keep learning. In the age of globalization and the Internet, you have access to the best minds and the best thinking on any range of topics. Find something that stimulates you and follow the path to keep learning and find out more until you become an expert - at which point, hopefully, you'll have gained an understanding of how fun it is to have some in-depth knowledge and an even greater appreciation for how much more there is to learn. All of which can easily become an attitude and a mindset that will make you much more valuable no matter what you do.

5) Have empathy for anyone who might consider hiring you. This means you need to understand things from their perspective. When you're applying or interviewing for a new job, keep in mind that the people who make hiring decisions have two big things on their mind: 1) Is this person going to add more value than anyone else I might hire; and 2) How do I know that hiring this person isn't going to be a mistake and a problem down the road.

When I first started in the work world, I didn't know what it was like to sit on the other side of the hiring desk interviewing streams of candidates. The secret is they want you to be a great candidate because they've got a job to fill and typically a lot of other things to do with their time. The sooner they find the right person, the better off they are.

I've made many hiring decisions where I knew the decision would have a profound impact on someone else's life. The candidates who stood out for me (many of whom got job offers) had two things in common: a) a track record that showed they loved working hard and delivering results; and 2) the ability to make me feel comfortable that any hiring risk (and there always is) was absolutely worth it.

Make sure that before you go to an interview you know how you're going to handle those two issues.

6) Understand that the best contacts are the ones you make for yourself. The whole notion that you have to have the right contacts starting out is simply false. Everyone who comes to know you as a good, hard worker is a potential contact. Over time, the number of the people who can vouch for you should grow....as long as you're thinking, "How can I be a contributor who always does more than I'm expected to do?"

7) Don't ask for an informational interview without understanding that it is an interview. You might not be interviewing for a specific job, but you are interviewing for the chance to demonstrate that you're the type of person who should be given access to whatever networks that person has. I learned this early in my career when I was woefully unprepared for an informational interview. I was left almost in tears when the person turned it into a rigorous interview and I came up short. The interviewer closed the session by giving me valuable advice that has always stayed with me: In the work world, you are constantly being evaluated. If you go to an informational interview with the idea that you want the person on the other end to help you, you have to demonstrate from the outset why and how you are worthy of that help.

8) Figure out how you can get the experience you need to compete for the job you want - even if you have to work at no or reduced pay for a time to do it. (This is a good reason to not take on heavy personal or financial obligations too early.) When I was working summers during college as a waitress at Crater Lake Lodge, I decided I'd rather be a ranger, so I volunteered in my limited off-time for whatever job the Park Service wanted done. The Chief Ranger noticed my initiative, and ended up being a friend and mentor who helped me get into the Park Service as a seasonal ranger (complete with Smokey the Bear hat). It's still the coolest summer job anyone I've ever known had.

Years later, after I was at Microsoft, I wanted to switch from being an editor to being a product manager -- which involves managing all aspects of marketing for a product. It was a very sought after job. Since no one had made that transition before, I found a way to do product management work in my "spare" time for eight months in order to become a better candidate. And I took classes at night to fill in some gaps in my knowledge. No one suggested I work two jobs or even go back to school - I just knew that's what it would take to get the job against all the Harvard and Stanford 4.0 MBAs I was competing against.

9) Be flexible in finding ways to make money from something you love. When I graduated with a journalism degree, the country was in a deep recession and it seemed no one was hiring new journalism graduates. I knew I loved writing so I figured out who was paying for writers and editors and found a way in - even though I had to work on subjects that I sometimes had no interest in. (I still remember the agony of editing a several-hundred page manual on "Women's Tailored Clothing.") I still write everyday as part of my work and love it - even though colleagues don't think of me as a "writer" - which is great, because that's not what I'm paid to do.

10) Do something good for the world beyond your job. Volunteer. Get involved in your community. Become an activist for causes you care about. Your good works might not lead you to a new, more interesting job in the near term, but they will help you become the type of person that others want to work with and be around over the longer term. And that's a key part of what it takes to have a successful career.

Innovation - The Lessons of Bob

I worked on Microsoft Bob.

Confession moment...I usually think twice before telling people that. Is there any other tech product that has generated more *unintended* laughter? In the right context, just saying the word "Bob" is a punchline. If you doubt this, take another look at the video Microsoft released on "Bill's Last Day."

I managed communications for Microsoft's consumer division during the era that produced Bob. I lived Bob in a way few people do. A few of my best friends worked on Bob. My husband was a key developer on Bob and the lead developer for the never-released Bob 2.0. Bob was part of our lives.

Some people may remember that Bob was featured on the front page of USA Today and on launch day was the opening segment for the CBS Evening News - back in an era when network news programs attracted a huge audience. I was introduced to Steven Spielberg as the person behind Bob's PR.

I was also the one who sent Bill Gates email at the height of the positive Bob-mania that said we were likely to face a horrible backlash. Tech influentials had started telling me that they were going to bury Bob. They not only didn't like it, they were somehow angry that it had even been developed. It was personal.

And that's exactly what happened. Bob got killed. But first, it was ridiculed and stomped.

For Microsoft, it was a costly mistake. For the people who worked on it, Bob taught many lessons. Lessons that came into play for subsequent products that made a big impact, both at Microsoft and beyond.

How many people know that the lead developer for Bob 2.0 was also the co-founder of Valve and the development lead for Half-Life, which became an industry phenomenon, winning more than 50 Game of the Year awards and selling more than 10 million copies? Or that Darrin Massena - development lead for Bob 1.0, most recently named Technical Innovator of the Year here in Washington State - and Valve co-founder Mike Harrington are the co-founders and partners behind Picnik - which is now the world's leading online photo editor, attracting almost 40 million visits a month and a million unique users a day.

In an innovation context, Bob had many lessons.

Here are a few:

1) Never underdeliver against expectations. Because of the initial hype around Bob, expectations were huge. The first version of Bob was a friendly product that in user tests got good reviews from the intended audience - novice users - but in order to meet expectations, Bob was going to have to be a life-changing experience - and it wasn't.

2) Consumers don't care about strategy. Corporate customers do because if they're investing big dollars over many years in a product, they want to know that it will continue to evolve in ways that are beneficial to the organization. In the corporate market, selling a vision is huge. By contrast, selling a vision to consumers is pointless. The key question they want answered is, "Does it make my life better today?" (BTW, I suspect Bob 3.0 had potential to be great.)

3) A small marketing budget can work wonders. One of the reasons people jumped on Bob was the perceived huge marketing budget. The reality is that the budget for promoting Bob was actually tiny compared to other products I worked on at Microsoft. Because it was so tiny, we felt we had to do out-of-the-box things - like supply napkins on all the flights heading into Vegas during the CES announcement of Bob. The napkins didn't cost much, but boy, people thought if we were buying napkins, it must mean we'd already spent a huge amount of money elsewhere. (We hadn't.)

4) If you start to get feedback from customers that your product is anything but great, don't forget that you only get one chance to make a first impression. The first version of Half-Life never saw the light of day because user testing showed it wasn't fun enough. And this was after that first version had already won the "Action Game of the Year" honors at E3. Making the decision to start over was hugely expensive, and something Valve's publisher completely disagreed with - which meant that all of the funding had to be done privately - which meant the Valve co-founders, including my husband but especially Gabe Newell, got to write huge personal checks.

5) Don't be afraid to take risks. Bob was a risk. People often criticize Bill Gates as someone who didn't take risks. But these people are wrong. Bill was always a risk taker. He supported Bob in part I think because he wanted to support people who were willing to take risks. The Bob team was full of innovators and risk takers, and to Bill's credit, he was very supportive of them as individuals even after Bob hit the wall. (Most famously, Bill married Melinda, who at one time managed the Bob team. At the time, Bill joked that he did so because he liked Bob so well.)

6) Place bets on smart people who push the envelope. Bob was in many ways a bet placed on people. When I worked there - 87-98, Microsoft took many risks on people in ways that were pretty wonderful. One of my favorites along this line is the developer who took charge of the Microsoft Word business without any previous business experience - because Bill Gates thought he was a smart guy who could do it. Chris Peters later led the Office business to huge success and to my mind, was Microsoft's most talented business leader of the era. If you're not willing to risk a Bob, you're probably not willing to hire a Chris Peters either.

(The same people within the consumer division who bought off on Bob - including Melinda - also bought off on Expedia, despite the fact that practically no one on that team had any travel experience. That ended up being a good decision worth more than a billion dollars.)

7) Never forget the crucial role influentials play. In the case of Bob, many of the "end users" for Bob loved it. (I saw the feedback.) But the influentials of that era - in that case, the core tech people - hated it. For whatever product you're releasing, consider the crucial role of influentials even if they're not your target audience.

In the case of Picnik, two important sets of influentials were professional designers and photographers - including the people who are willing to shell out huge amounts of money for Adobe Photoshop. Picnik reached out directly to those people - not to convince them that Picnik was for them, but to encourage them to consider that it might be the best type of product for people who didn't want to take on the learning curve or high cost of Photoshop. Picnik ended up winning many design awards - including ID Magazine's highest honor for an interactive product.

8) If it doesn't work the first time, be open to the idea that it might work down the line. I think Microsoft made the right decision in giving up on Bob during development of the second version. But I also love the fact that Billg was willing to keep trying. Microsoft could easily have funded Bob 2.0, and even a Bob 3.0. It even started down this path, but made a course correction when it became clear the obstacles to Bob's ever being a market success were too big. (Note that Microsoft had backed previous products that were not market successes at the outset- Word 5.0 on the PC was pretty ridiculous from a user interface standpoint and a market penetration standpoint- but all of the learnings that went into that product helped Word become a much bigger success years later.}

9) Don't be afraid to poke fun at yourself. I love that Bill Gates pokes fun at Bob - and that my husband Mike still enjoys wearing his Bob t-shirt. Life is too short to not have fun.